MILNEROFFROAD - Am I being unrealistic in my expectations ?

I'm a bit annoyed and even more so having just received an e-mailed response from Milneroffroad and would just like a second opinion as perhaps I'm expecting too much ?

I bought several part for my Shogun Sport from Milners and whilst the delivery times where very good the quality of the goods I received had issues and as such I sent them this e-mail as when fitted it was a Saturday afternoon and they where closed so could not speak with anyone in person.
My Message to them:
Good afternoon,

I recently ordered some parts from you for a Mitsubishi Shogun Sport

Can you just confirm that the parts you sent where for the Shogun Sport ? Odd request I know but I've experienced some issues with some of these parts.
1. The springs themselves had a slightly smaller internal diameter making them difficult to seat correctly on the lower spring perch although we got there in the end but since they have been fitted the ride is incredibly poor. Now we knew that having HD springs would firm up the rear suspension and increase its ability to take a load without suspension sag but there is little to no give in the rear suspension now and it crashes over pot holes, speed bumps, etc making the ride incredibly jarring and far removed from what it once was. The vehicle has only covered 200 miles since installation of the springs so they may yet "Bed in" but the ride is far removed from what it should be at the minute.
2. The rear Anti Role bar drop links. The bolts for the drop links are shorter than the standard and the bushes thicker than standard making them a nightmare to fit. We had to try and compress / put them under load to get them fitted. Whilst the ARB is at the correct angle and all is now fitted and appears to be working correctly it's really not ideal as I though these where a direct replacement ? I have photographs that we too during installation if you would like to see them to try and illustrate the issues ?
Any thoughts or advice you can offer, especially regarding the springs as while we've decided to give them another 2-3 weeks and see how /if they be in the ride really is not right and extremely uncomfortable at the moment.
Thanks for taking the time to read this and look forward to any advice / assistance you may be able to offer ?
Regards
Mark

Milners Reply:
Hello,
>
> Thank you for your email.
>
> I have spoken with the technical department regarding your email and he has advised the below.
>
> The coil springs we stock for this vehicle will lift it around 1.5inches from standard (this is stated on the website). They are also 20% stronger than standard so you may find the ride a bit firmer. The firmness along with the extra height you may find will make the ride slightly different, but providing the shocks are not knackered this shouldn't cause the vehicle to 'crash over' potholes.
>
> You are correct with the bolts, they are shorter than standard but it is all we have had in for the last year and have had no problems before. We have taken note of this for you and are awaiting the arrival of new stock, but unfortunately we must empty the stock we have here first.
>
> All parts come with a years warranty so if you feel this email hasn’t helped towards any of your problems our warranty department may be able to help you, but we wouldn't have anything different to sell you.
>
> I hope this helps
>
> Thank you
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Harriet Halse

Now first off I clearly stated that I knew the new springs where HD and would of course be firmer, but they where a poor fit from the outset and the ride is quite genuinely now back breaking over even the smallest of pot holes.
As for the rear drop links / ARB bushes, I can't believe their selling a product that they know to be incorrect but are looking to pass these products onto customers without any form of prior disclosure in the hope they don't notice and just get on with it so Milners don't loose out financially.

Now is it just me being an ar5e or is this NOT the way to do business ? Am I over reacting by complaining and expecting more or should I just except that this is what you get for the money so tuff as Milners seem to be implying ?

To illustrate some of the issues this is the new and old drop link side by side

Obviously shorter and the bush is clearly larger than standard. Not a lot of difference you may say but keep in mind that there's 4 bushes in total to go on the drop link coupled with the shorter bolt it makes a fair difference.

Now moving onto the Coil Springs, the diameter of round bar used on the new spring appears to be thicker, has additional coils, has a smaller internal diameter and is actually slightly shorter in terms of it's free length than the 9yr old original spring hence my question Milners if this is the correct spring for the Shogun Sport ? Looking again at them I wonder if there for the standard Shogun which is pretty much a completely different vehicle to the Sport ?

No I don't think you are being an arse......surely items should be fit for the purpose, ie your drop links . They've admitted that there wrong in the reply you received . Their excuse is ridiculous. Just because nobody's complained doesn't mean that they're alright . Again if the springs don't fit....they don't fit. Ride quality is debatable due to being a pattern part, diff people diff ideas.....but again if its not right it's not right.
The shocks they sell fall into the same category, yes they are cheap...they say that and that they're good for the mot,
But the fronts are soggy as hell and the rears......you might as well weld the axle to the chassis they're that hard!.
The rear ARB kits for the B has the wrong size bushes,20mm instead of 18 mm, the lower ball joint rubbers rub on the hub casting and will wear through the side of the rubber in no time.
We pay our money and makes our choice......I still use them and most of my problems can be worked around and the delivery service is excellent, but like you it can be damm irritating at times. :evil:

Don't get me wrong their delivery times are excellent and I don't know how they manage it as I can't get items sent and delivered that quickly for a sensible price so fair play to them.

It's just the quality of good and the attitude in the response that annoys me.

I've sent them the reply below so will have to wait and see what if any response i get I suppose :evil:

Thank you for your reply Harriet,

having read your reply I'm not sure you took note of the contents of my original E-mail but just to confirm for you, Yes we where fully aware that the HD coils we purchased would make the ride firmer but what we have at the moment is simply NOT RIGHT.
We are professionals and the shock absorbers where checked prior to reassembling the suspension and they are quite serviceable so this isn't a problem, it is the springs that are undoubtedly causing the issue.

With regard to the anti role bar drop links / bushes I'm very surprised to hear that you knew the bolt length to be incorrect but you still sell them without any prior disclosure to the customer as you "need to empty the stock we have first" before rectifying the issue. I have to say in all my years I've never heard of a business practice where incorrect parts are knowingly sold to customers so you can clear the incorrect stock without loss to yourselves !

We will persevere with the springs for another few weeks and see if they improve with use but if not then yes, I would like to return them for a refund as at the moment they are really not fit for purpose.

So we are prepared could you tell me what your returns procedures are ? I.E. do we need a returns number / ticket prior to their return or should they simply be shipped back to you with a copy of the original invoice ?
As these are to my mind defective parts are you liable for the return postage costs or is this something we will be expected to cover?
I assume their are no hidden "restocking charges" for parts returned as defective / incorrect ?

Regards

Mark

You arent the first person i have heard of having issues with springs from Milners!

Should have bought a set of springs from Mark at MG Autos :lol:

I'm with most on this one if it does not do what it is supposed to do then they're not fit for purpose print out that email and keep it. That will be enough proff should you need it that they knowingly flogged the wrong stuff.

Good luck with it

Your quite right Paul, I should have made my own but I was up against a short time scale and money's a bit tight since moving into the new unit BUT I should have known better.

I've had Milner springs before on some of my old Frontera's and in all honesty, no they weren't great and only lasted a couple of years at best if used off road but they where a cheap option which is what I needed on this occasion.
I am now going to make my own though as I'm really not happy with these so one of the original springs gets shipped off tomorrow for testing and to make a pattern so hopefully in 3-4 weeks the Shogun will be sporting a set of MG Autos Springs

However I'm just really quite surprised about their response to the ARB Drop Links issue. They openly state that they know there wrong, yet quite happily send them out to customers all the same under the "no one's complained about it before" heading. Now to me that's just not right....

I wonder what sort of returns policy Milners have with their Japanese or whatever, suppliers.? or are they using Chinese parts :wink:

just to make a bit more out of the punters.?

Milners have made a good living out of the 4X4 fraternity, and I wonder if anybody else have had problems with parts from them, as I know some of the folk on FOG are also members of other non Frontera 4X4 forums, so it would be interesting to get their feedback.

Just so you know Mark Im pritty sure its against the law to charge a 'restocking fee' so dont let them get out of it

I emailed them the other day asking if their 20% stiffer springs would result in lifting the fronty, and if not, can they provide spings that will lift it approx 2-3".

All i got back was: No they wont lift it but they are 20% stronger

Thats fair enough but doesnt answer my second question?

I only emailed because the springs they have are cheap and i had' heard good things about them..

I may just shell out the extra doh and get some off you mark

I use MILNERS alot as theyre just down the road from work, and i too have had issues, i bought 2 full front bearing kits for the 2.5, inner and outer wheel bearings, only to find that when both sides were stripped, that one of the packets had identical bearings in, instead of 1 inner 1 outer :thumbdown:

? was annoying at the time as i couldnt just get back in the truck and nip back for a replacement :roll:

. But they did give a full refund when i did return it, no questions asked. Wonder who they sold them to after id taken em back :lol:

Also, a guy at work bought a new water pump for his surf and had it delivered to the garage where he was having his headgasket sorted, they fitted it and rebuilt the engine started it and the water pump didnt work

, stripped it down again and took the front off the pump only to find the inner workings were out of a knackered pump :oh yer:

, old seals and 2 missing blades :shock:

Seem that there are a few probs with them, oh and it doesnt help when hardly any of them have got a clue what your talking about when you ask for anything or advice on fitting, there are a few polish guys/gals there at the min and although their friendly enough it sometimes is hard to comunicate if you end up with one of them

I got a set of MG springs they look shiney Just need some help fitting them

Go for the MG springs matey made for the job and look the part

If you were closer mate id do em for you, on the ramp it only takes 20mins :thumbup:

Mark, if you can afford the err 'hit' it might be worthwhile sending one of the new springs off for testing along with the original, just to see if they meet spec etc etc...

Hi Mark,

in some defense of Milners (and other suppliers) there are many pattern parts that can be "compatible" across several vehicles. It may be that they can buy in stock (springs in this case) that come as standard and +20% that fit several vehicles but were based on one model originally - you might get lucky but then again you might not :shock:

all Milners can do is take your truck and compare across a supplier catalogue for "associated" parts and send you those. there are many posts on this and other forums saying that toyota parts fit this or that (by trial and error) the 3rd party manufacturers do the same.

i think the bolt issue seems odd that they know but i would guess that poly bushes are made to standard dimensions (not for a mitzi) and approximate bolts supplied. the reason they probably haven't had problems is probably that they are normally fitted by spanner monkeys like us who can always "make it fit".

good luck with your new springs - on plus side this could be another sideline, selling these on a mitzy forum :wink:

hope you get sorted soon mate and lets hope we can catch up again soon to see the new truck

Hello Steve, good to hear from you :thumbup:

its been a while, hope your doing well mate ?

I know what you mean about pattern parts and yes it can be difficult sometimes and it's always going to be a bit of a compromise if your buying bits that are interchangeable like with the Frontera as the "Lift Springs" are actually made for an Isuzu Trooper and thats what you order when you ring them so there's going to be a compromise from the outset and your aware of that.

However the parts that I've ordered for my Shogun Sport where listed as being for a Shogun Sport so to my mind it should be a "it does what it says on the tin" kind of thing. They should fit because in theory there for that vehicle and that vehicle only likewise with the drop links.
Selling the drop links to customers knowing there not right from day one and stating that they will continue to do so until all the current stock is gone is just wrong in my view. As a minimum there should be some kind of disclaimer to give you the customer a heads up and protect them legally.
Now I'm not saying I'm going to take legal action over what amounts to less than £100 worth of parts but technically Milners are breaking the law by selling goods as a direct replacement for standard / OE parts knowing there not the same at all. It's actually a clear case of Obtaining Money By Deception which is contrary to the Fraud Act of 2006.

I appreciate everyone is in business to make money, lets face it you don't do it with the intention of loosing out but there needs to be a fairness in the way you deal with your customers and to me Milners response pretty much said, yer we know there's a problem but while we can fob people off with parts that don't really fit properly so we don't loose any money, then that's exactly what we are going to do.
It's just wrong isn't it ?

Apart from the pattern parts Etc., where Milners source their parts from is not the customers problem, but at the end of the day it's still Milners responsibility to their customers to supply goods which are as advertised.

Under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 goods must be as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose, and if they're not, the retailer is in breach of contract and you have a claim under the Sale of Goods Act.

No worries m8, credit where its due, they are well made and the spring rate is pretty much spot on for lift and articulation and my only slight criticism is the colour :wink:

TBH I can understand why peeps need to save money as things are tight everywhere but after seeing a few trucks with LR springs that don't quite fit or Milners HD jobbies that don't articulate cos they are too strong, I would strongly advise anyone to spend a little more time to save a few more pennies, bite the bullet and get the proper jobbies because you wont be disappointed

Sorry for being off topic, back to Milners

Have spent quite a few quid with Milners over the years and have friends with other Jap 4x4's who always use them. I have had 1 or 2 issues but they have always been resolved fairly quickly with no fuss or drama and at no cost to me. Their delivery is always spot on even getting me a pair of CV joints guaranteed Sat delivery for not too much money. However as with all suppliers you are going to get the odd failure and I am a little surprised with their attitude to the bolts on the ARB links and continuing to sell them knowing they are not quite long enough.

As to quality, almost everything I have had has been OK with the exception of steering idlers, had 3 off them and they are made of chocolate, seriously, originals will take a fair amount of abuse, Milners current stock will taken none whatsoever without bending :roll:

The springs however sound like a complete balls up and not sure where they have gone wrong, was it their supplier as I'm guessing they don't get them made but buy them in. At the end of the day they still have to be fit for purpose and if they aren't then a refund is in order

There are a few knowledgeable peeps there, when I received the wrong steering arm the guy on the phone new exactly what I was after without even looking at his puter screen and the same happened with the Trooper CV joints, there are 3 types apparently which I didn't realise and he knew exactly how to tell and how many splines they would have.