4x4 transporter/collection

[amphibianalf]

hi all ...further to my post "lpg fronty" iv'e been looking around for a fronty and iv'e seen some that need work for m.o.t or non runners but are nice cars and worth buying if you can do the work yourself ....
i have no problem doing the work but it's getting the car to my home, so my question is does anyone on here have experience of transporting cars or know of or use a service that does ... i called a couple of places i found on the net that hire self drive transporters but not for 4x4's i haven't called any of the big companies through fear of the price they would charge .... anyone got any ideas
.....cheerz....AL......

[Rifleman]

What about hiring a trailer mate? I dont think they are that expensive.

[gregster]

what are you looking at, and where abouts are they...
I have a tow vehicle and access to a big ifor williams and could work you out a price.

[gregster]

[Wilberforce]

I take it then that the 2.2 in your profile is no longer with you?
If it was, or you have a helpful mate with a 4x4, just hire a trailer for a day and get it yourself.

Failing that, maybe try to find a business that buys and fixes accident damaged cars, they usually have a contact or two for getting auctioned cars to them and might be worth a try.

Like Greg is offering

[amphibianalf]

hi all and thanks for the replies ...
unfortunately my 2.2 is no longer and i have a little pug 206 now so a trailer isn't an option for me and i don't know anybody in the garage trade any more or anyone with a 4x4...
i found a place on the net after posting this last night that move 4x4's that charge £75 + a mileage charge of £1.50-2.00 per mile...
so for instance 1 car i saw on ebay was in milton keynes it would cost me around £200 to get it to my house in crystal palace so add that to the price of a non runner and i might as well buy a runner and save myself the work i'll have to do unless get a really good deal on a non runner ...some of the frontys iv'e seen are non runners but are but are priced at around their market value minus the cost of the parts that they need ...i spose the only cost effective way is if you own a trailer or slide bed yourself ....
i'll just have to carry on scouring the internet for my ideal fronty....
....AL....

[gregster]

That quote of £75 plus £1.50 a mile isnt that bad mate...if you think most things dragging a 4x4 are probably going to be doing 15-20 mpg and at £6.35 a gallon thats costing them 50p/mile in fuel alone, plus the other running costs, plus the investment they have made in their towing set-up.
If you use your car for work, most get paid 45p/mile, which is considered fair even by the inland revenue...a car probably uses 15p/mile to run, the other 30p per mile is considered reasonable other running costs. The factor is kinda the same at your £1.50 per mile, with 1/3 of the £1.50 being for fuel and the other 2/3rd for running costs...Wear and tear on both 4x4 and trailer is going to be higher than that of a car alone. On top of this, the driver/owner needs to earn a living. £75 a day isnt great money when you take tax etc out of it...unless he could do 2 jobs that day, but that would probably make a long day, so he should be earning £150.
Factor in that you live in the LEZ, and that means that anyone using a recovery truck will have to have a fairly new one, and thats a tidy investment on their part.

Were you quotes for one way or both ways?
Some charge for just the journey moving your car, some charge for just the journey their and back to. Anyone who isnt near your home or near where the car is will incur stem mileage to get to the job, so this would need to be paid in addition in most cases. Its worth looking at exactly what mileage they are going to charge you for, that quote might not be so bad after all.

There is a couple of websites that specilise in kinda reverse auctions on moving big stuff...
like
http://www.shiply.com/how-it-works.php
How it works is you put in what you need moving and where from and to...and then hauliers will quote you on doing it. You want to get stuff moved as cheap as poss, and they dont want empty wagons running on return journeys. You might get a better quote that way, as someone would do the job cheaper to fill the dead mileage.

Personally speaking, I dont think its worth buying a dead fronty unless its reasonably near where I live, because of the time and cost that is involved in collecting it, and I have a towcar and trailer!
Some bargains can be found that still run, and hence can be driven back, and that is much much easier and cost effective.
The problem with fronty's is their weight vs value...they are too heavy to be moved on a beat up £1000 transit recovery truck, and are worth a couple of hundred quid is scrap metal alone. There isnt much of a window between what they are worth up and running, and what they would make in scrap plus selling the easy to remove parts off them, hence why the dead ones make rather more than they should really often.
In fairness unless they are litterly scrap money, its really not worth going there...any more and by the time you have recovered it and fixed it you will be lucky to break even on costs, let alone the time to spend doing the work.
Much easier to look for one that runs and save yourself the headache.

[carlisletiger]

when i was looking at getting an MGB transported from Barnsley to Carlisle i tried anyvan.com and was quoted £124 which i dont think i could have done the round trip in the fronty and trailer for that money . might be worth trying them

[bushwacker]

hi ya i think i need to swat up on the driving law, new rules come out every day are A bars or towing dolleys not allowed any more in the good old days one would tow or drag a moter were ever you needed to take it i have got many a storey as regardin this ........pete

[gregster]

Pete... I think you will find that A bars and dollies are only legal as a means of "recovery"...recovery being that of moving a vehicle to a safe place.

Moving a car other than where you have had a call out to attend a breakdown or accident is not recovery, its transportation, which is totally different.

If its just down the road, you might get away with it, unless you are involved in a accident and then you are stuffed.

TBH I would advise anyone to hire a trailer sooner than buy and use and A frame...they are handy for what they are intended for, but that aint for transportation, they are great for moving a car quickly over a short distance thats broken down, much safer than a tow rope, and 1 person can do it on their own. The car on it needs to be tax'ed mot'ed insured and roadworthy too.

[bobbinsjob]

Pete, using an A bar or dolly is legal but not for a fronty as it is classed as an unbreaked trailer over the maximum weight :'(

[gregster]

Like Ian said the only get out is if it weighs less than 750kg...so smart car maybe or geewizz...hence why you see this silly little cars being towed by motorhomes on A frames...
They count as an unbraked trailer, but with the difference that they are still also a car, so most be legal to be on the road if they are touching it at all.

You can get braked a frames now, but I question their legality as my understanding is that a braked 4 wheel trailer needs to brake equally on all 4 of its wheels, something a car would never do if the frame operated the cars brakes. Probably Ok unless you have an accident, but then you are buggered with invalid insurance etc as the insurers would have a valid excuse not to pay anything out.

Some people do chance it, but thats up to the individual...I occasionally use mine to move stuff that perhaps I shouldnt, but only short distances where otherwise I might have been tempted to get someone to jump in it and I would tow it with a strop. Its safer than that, but still not recommended.

The same arguement continues regarding recovery trucks...you look on ebay and half of the beavertail 7.5 tonners and other trucks are claimed to be MOT exempt as they are registered recovery...this means that they cant be used to transport anything other than a broken down car that is being recovered.
Yet the same trucks you see at the banger tracks, and weighing cars in, or moving stuff for people, which is clearly transportation not recovery. Its a loop hole that gets illegally exploited, and means owners can get out of having to get trucks mot'ed (when they probably wouldnt stand a chance in hell of passing), and avoiding having O-licences, cpc and keeping tacho's etc. I might be wrong but I think the rules state something like a recovery vehicle must not be capable of carrying a load at all (ie should be just a spec lift truck, or one of them hooj HGV wreckers) so I dont really understand how anyone can claim that a beavertail is "recovery".
Vosa are on the case...our local salvage auction is regularily targetted by them, stopping all the "recovery trucks" for some education by way of hefty fines and vehicle seizures.

When you weigh it all up, the costs, the risks, the legal requirements...it really isnt worth risking taking chances.
Say you wanted to pick up a car that was taxed and mot'ed, by the time you have bought an A-frame, insured the other vehicle (the car being towed needs to be insured to be on the road remember), then it would probably be cheaper to just hire a trailer for a day. Trailers tow much nicer than cars on A frames anyway, and at least will help you try and stop should you need to quickly. Towing an unbraked car that weighs as much as the tow vehicle is not a pleasant experience, and although it is possible is not something I would enjoy.
A 3.5t+ motorhome towing a small car, would probably not really be that much difference to drive, as its only a fraction of the weight thats floating around on the A frame, in the same way as towing a small car behind a 4x4 wouldnt be, but when you are braking for 2 cars the same size with just one set of brakes just hope you dont need to stop quick.

[Monster Truck]

I took this from the department of transport web site

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg ... 200824.pdf

“A”- Frames
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and “A”-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).
Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.
Regulations 15 and 16 of C&U set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.
In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an “A” frame using an inertia (overrun) device.
Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.
Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.
From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.

[carlisletiger]

anyone got a link for google translate .......

[kees]

Its goverment rules and regulations, you are not supposed to undersand what it means . They never make things easy to understand

[amphibianalf]

hi all ...i know if you start quoting legislation to a representative of the law at the side of the road they get the hump ..(i got stopped for having my spots on) .i did this about driving/spot lights that were under my front bumper and they threatened to take my fronty from me to have it thoroughly checked over...petty little TW#T!!!!

[Drift]

I went with an ex member Andysd1 a year or more ago to Yorkshire in a Ford Galaxy I think it was to pick up a swb 2.8 with an A frame.

We must not have set it correctly as about a mile from where we picked it up we felt the car shift on the frame.
We then stopped on the major A road (safest option) and seen our mistake and sorted it, then a police traffic car pulled in and a couple of scousers towing a car on an A frame we thought the worst but the guy looked over it and accepted the car was just purchased and he was very pleasant and happy with the set up and let us tootle along.

[Clunk]

To line out the basics.
When fitted with an A frame and attached to a tow vehicle, the towed car becomes a trailer. If the weight of the A frame and car weighs more than 750KG, then by law you must have brakes. You must also have working lights, triangular reflectors, and if over 750kg, a break away of some kind. If the trailer s over a certain length (9 feet I think) and wider than the tow vehicle, it must have marker lights. It must also have amber reflectors along its side, at defined points (within 300mm of front or rear edge and no further than 3000mm apart)
The towed vehicle when attached comes under the tow vehicles insurance.
If the combination weight is over 3,500kg and you are towing a car to any destination not covered by recovery purposes, you MUST have an 'O' license.
The ONLY situation where you are fully legally allowed to tow an un braked car with an A frame is to the nearest safe place.
The towed vehicle must comply with weight limits set by tow vehicle and your license. (For example, you cannot tow a LWB frontera with another LWB frontera if you passed your test after 1997. LWB Frontera weighs 2,000 kilos. GTW is 4,200kilos. License limits set your max weight of trailer to no more than 80% of the tow vehicle. So the max GTW you can have is 3,800. If you passed before 1997, then you can. providing the vehicles and contents do not exceed the GTW of the tow vehicle.)

This is how I understand it from various sources and conversations on various forums over the past 6 years. Bits in brackets are grey areas from my memory. (I.E. They are possibly wrong.)