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banter general discussions etc
by jam1e on Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:53 pm
Hi folks. I'm after some advice on my 4x4 system, and diff locks. After getting stuck the other day, and despite getting out, it took around 45 minutes to do so. Please bear with me on the story.... I'm a newbie here but not to Frontera's, having had 3. Mainly for light off road mobility. At the moment I have 2003 B model swb 2.2 petrol. Despite the rain we've had, and the soil being very clay like, I wanted to get across these 2 small fields. Granted it doesn't help that the first slopes down gradually, then once you're at the bottom and through the gateway, the second is an incline. So in essence, a very shallow "V". Just to be clear, I'm up against the fence on my left side going in, and the track is muddy grass, and around 15' wide. The fields have not long been sown. Due to the gate entrance being on the apex of a hill I don't get out and test the ground on foot, I just drive into the field and stop some 15 yards in. Getting out, I immediately knew I was in the pooh! Under foot was just wet, under the weight of the truck, the tyres just pushed the water to the top of the clay soil. My truck has 3 "winter tyres" and one rear nearside AT Grabber type. I went into low 4x4 mode and crawled forward in 1st gear under its own motion. As the track was sloped slightly to the right, despite steering slightly to the left, all the truck did was to slide bit by bit to the right. In a short distance both my offside wheels dropped into 10" deep trench, which separates the track from the start of the growing crop. I then tried to reverse back up the track, but both offside wheels just would not turn, let alone spin! I could tell the near-sides were turning as mud and water were spraying up. But It wouldn't move back at all.... I thought it best to try and gain speed in low ratio down the track to get through the water at the bottom (where it was pooling) through the gateway and back uphill onto the top of the next field. My thought being that I could then turn around and do the same, (In low ratio) but keep close to the fence where the ground was better/dryer. In short, I managed to do this, bar one encounter with a large post.... What I don't understand is, why didn't the offside wheels turn when they went into the 10" trench (as mentioned above) ? Without a doubt it would have helped me a lot! At differing times, this happened throughout my f***-up at differing times, which didn't help, and I found it very frustrating! I appreciate I f***ed up from the beginning by driving straight into the field without checking it out. And also, for using inappropriate tyres. Anyhow, I've done some research, (as best a person can when only understanding basic 4x4 systems....) I'm trying to understand why the wheels wouldn't move. Am I right in thinking it's partly due to having a limited slip diff? And would a "diff-lock" have made the 2 mentioned non moving wheels at least turn/spin? I'm trying to prepare myself now as best I can. Obviously tyres is the first thing... I have a little understanding of what "wind up" is, and that diff-lock would not work on a solid surface on bends due to differing speeds of the wheels. I'd really appreciate some advice on what modifications I can make to my Frontera to help in such harsh muddy terrain. Any constructive advice would be appreciated. Cheers.
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jam1e
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by hipo1024 on Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:55 pm
Lol well at least you got out ok! There's a thread on here explaining exactly how the 4wheel drive system works. I don't have a link as I'm on my phone and it's a massive hassle to get links on a phone and frankly it's not hard to just search for it yourself But in a nutshell in normal driving a Frontera is rear wheel drive. When you press the button it engages the front wheels to give 4 wheel drive. Fronteras don't have a center diff like permanent 4 wheel drive vehicles. This isn't a drawback however because it locks the front and rear together so in essence they mirror each other hence why you can't use 4wd on grippy surfaces. Now fronteras don't come with locking diffs, and only a very few (and even less B series) came with a limited slip rear diff. So basically I'm 99% sure you'll have a open front and rear diff. This means that the power will always go to the path of least resistance this the wheel with least grip. Now in your scenario where you had both your offside wheels in a trench I'd guess your truck was leaning over into the trench meaning most of its weight was on the offside wheels in effect lifting the nearside wheels giving them less grip hence why they were spinning. If you had a limited slip diff then it would transfer some of the power to the other wheel meaning that yes it would of helped you out. But most 4x4s don't come with this as standard. Youtube how a open diff works if the above doesn't make sense lol
My 2.8 shorty - now sold, and comments hereMy old dti - now sold "Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "WOW --- What a Ride!" This vehicle runs on 100% recycled dinosaurs
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hipo1024
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by jam1e on Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:53 pm
You're quite right Hipo1024, I was chuffed I made it out of their, even if by the skin of my teeth! And your explanation was just the job. Would that then mean that vehicles like the Honda CRV, and the Hyundai Tucson, which I believe are permanent 4x4 would have Diff-Lock then? Stretch, thanks for the links, I'll have a good mooch!
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jam1e
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by hipo1024 on Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:12 am
Probably not because they are 'all wheel drive' which is not 4x4. The X in 4x4 represents a locked centre diff (fronteras don't have a center diff so has a permanently locked center diff effectively) landrovers that are also (for the most part anyways) permanent 4 wheel drive but they have a lever/button to lock the center diff meaning they are all wheel drive in normal conditions and then a 4x4 when you lock the center diff. Without any clever traction control systems a all wheel drive car will get stuck if just 1 wheel looses grip (drops in a hole or you jack a wheel up) even of the other 3 wheels are on hot dry tarmac it'll still be 'stuck' because all the power will go through all the open diffs and out via the route of least resistance, Ie the wheel that's in the air. So as you can see a all wheel drive car is pretty pointless off road unless it either has a clever traction control system or a locking centre diff or in the case of my jeep it has both plus the edition of limited slip diffs all round
My 2.8 shorty - now sold, and comments hereMy old dti - now sold "Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "WOW --- What a Ride!" This vehicle runs on 100% recycled dinosaurs
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hipo1024
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by JEOH on Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:26 pm
Despite all technical ideas, I do believe that most important are tyres!
In mud terrain you won't have any chance with three wintertyres and one A/T.
Luckily, you got out somehow - sorry for not reading any further!
Kind regards, Ian Sorry for my pigeonenglish.My doctor says I have to invest time in SPORT
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by RatCav on Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:03 pm
Just to add to what JEOH said. I am convinced tyres is the most important thing when it comes to off roading. All proper 4x4's can have locked diff's etc, but when it comes down to it the thing between you and the ground is the rubber.
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by snapper on Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:45 pm
Says it all really, other than you were lucky to get it out at all... Range Rover on Grass
This posting may have been helpfull, on the other hand probably not... Either way, I may have had drink when posting it in which case it's probably not as helpfull as it could have been Work safe, and remember all technical problems can be resolved with a hammer, the trick is knowing where to hit it and how big a hammer to use (I often find it may also help to have a spare bit in the shed to replace the bit you have just mullered ) Work in Progress (or not as the case may be) I give you.... 'O-no' the truck.Comments on 'O-no' the truck may be left hereWork in Progress (or not as the case may be) I give you.... 'Truck'Comments on 'Truck' the truck may be left hereOwning a 2.8 is a hobby in it's self...
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by jmc on Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:00 am
On one of gregsters post on here some time ago, he talked about fitting fiddle brakes. I think that meant a way of working the back brakes separately so that the slipping wheel could be braked thus having the drive going to the wheel on the harder surface. Somebody told me recently that it can help to put the handbrake on a bit when one back wheel is slipping.
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by Fatbaz on Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:15 pm
JMC, you are right about the hand brake,a little left foot braking does the same as the hand brake but to the spinning front wheel as well. Difficult to master though in the drama of stuck and spinning wheels.
But as RATCAV quotes, it doesn't matter what lockers or traction control systems you have, if you haven't got suitable tyres you aren't going anywhere.
Regards
Stuart
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by jmc on Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:42 pm
thanks fatbaz. One other thing to add. It was several years before someone here told me about being able to change in and out of 4wheel drive while still driving. You have to stop first.and change into 4x4,this locks the front hubs. Once you start driving if the road is patchy with snow it means that you are on and off hard and soft surfaces. Fronteras in 4x4 do not like tarmac even when it's wet it's still too much for the front diff and they can be damged So the thing to do when driving along is to change back into 2 wheel high when there's a clear patch of road and then when a slushy bit changes back into 4x4. The other thing I do is if it's in 4 wheel drive and the centre of the road is dry but the edge is slushy or snow then I drive with the near side wheels in the snow and the drivers side in the tarmac and don,t bother to change into 2wheel drive.I think it's ok to do this as one wheel can slip slightly if needed to keep the front diff ok.Then when I get into town I stop and put it back into 2wheel drive. Hope this helps.
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jmc
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by stretch on Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:49 pm
On the b series you can change from 2wd to 4wd while moving.
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by jmc on Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:04 pm
Thanks stretch . I didn't,t know that ,oh well ,my post might help somebody with an A Series.
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